We didn’t see it coming but it’s been over a year of working from home! We’ve settled into our routines and we’ve seen a big shift in tech embracing remote work. Join us this week as we reflect on remote work since Episode 1 and discuss changes in the industry.
We didn’t see it coming but it’s been over a year of working from home! We’ve settled into our routines and we’ve seen a big shift in tech embracing remote work. Join us this week as we reflect on remote work since Episode 1 and discuss changes in the industry.
Hi. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of tech grow happy hour. We are your hosts. I'm Mel and I'm Maurice. Can you believe that this is episode 40? We're officially like in our forties? Oh my gosh. I really can't. I feel like, I mean, we say this a lot, but we thought this would be like a nice quarantine project when we started. And now it's our, you know, a full blown project that we don't intend on staffing. So it's been, it's been cool. We're like middle aged. Well, our podcast is middle aged. It's aging, like a fine wine. Oh, and speaking of wine, drinking tonight, Marissa. So I'm drinking canned wine actually from 14. I want to say, hang on. I got to Google this because I store this in a Mason jar. I bought this can of wine for making soup and. You know, save the rest for myself later. It's 14 hands winery, Pinot Grigio. I don't usually drink Pinot Grigio. Like I feel like it's always kind of sweet, but it's not bad. Especially after being fridge aged for a couple of days, it's truly not bad. So I'm enjoying myself. Like you've said that you don't like peanut Grigio, which I always thought was surprising. Cause I'm like, that's like so such a popular type of wine. That's what I buy. Sometimes I'm a, I'm a Sauvignon Blanc person. Yeah. Yeah. I remember you saying that for white. Yeah. I think I'm going to have to pick up a bottle of Souvignon Blong lasts next time. Pretty good. But I don't know. Maybe there really isn't that much of a difference and I'm overthinking it, but also possible it's not bad. That's the cooking wine that I bought was not bad. What, what are you drinking? I have a very Marissa drink tonight. It's been a lot of like Marissa ESC picks recently, but this one actually is I have a beer called plenty, the elder by the Russian river brewing company. Heck. Yeah, plenty. The elder is really exciting because it's like known as the world's best IPA and some, some publication from a while ago. But I do feel like beer fans are all aware of this drink. It's got like a lot of, I'm just reading the bottle. It's got a lot of text on it. It's like respect your elder. Keep cold drink fresh. Do not age, plenty. The elders, a historical figure. Don't make the beer inside this bottle. If you must sit on eggs, not on plenty. Do not say for a rainy day. Plenty is for savory, not for saving, consumed, slimy, fresh or not at all. Oh my goodness. Well, it's yelling at me. Um, but yeah, it's good. Uh, when Marissa came to visit last year, we went to. Russian river. And we did the lazy river and we went to the Russian river brewing company and they had this. And so that was like my introduction to it. And she was like, oh yeah, this is like the best IPA, blah, blah, blah. And so we had it and then I saw it at the store recently and I figured, oh, it's been a while since I've had this, got to pick it up. And oh my God, it's like the textbook IPA. Like it's like, you're drinking it. And that's exactly what the definition of a good IPA is. It's just classic. It is pretty textbook. Yeah, can't go wrong with that. I am the year drink tonight. I'm having soup wine and you're having the best IPA that's okay. You're good. IPA's will come. I'm sure. I live in the land of them and I guess what are you west coast? Anyway, coast represents, what are we talking about today? Houma gosh, today. Well, we wanted to revisit a topic. Um, it's, it's been a while now over a year, year and a half, maybe that we've been working from home and that was, I believe our first episode, actually, let me fact check myself. Yeah, that was our first episode was talking about working from home. Um, and that was like, when we all kind of first started doing it. And now we're pros, maybe. I don't know. I guess everyone is a little bit by now a pro at working from home. Um, we've been doing it for a while. The landscape has changed now, like return to office also might be happening for some people. Um, and just. There's been a lot of changes since we first spoke about this topic. So we wanted to kind of reflect on that today, um, see where things are at now. Um, and what new tips we can give after all this experience. Yeah, it's really interesting because work from home, I think back then in that episode, we saw it as a temporary state that we have to adjust to. But now looking at flick the world, I think the pandemic has seriously changed how we work permanently. And a lot of companies have gone, you know, very remote friendly if not remote first. And that's just their permanent policy from now on. Um, and we've see like a lot of changes in like the workforce in general and in the industry. Uh, so thought we could dive into that as well. What do you think of, you know, the changes to remote? Oh, my goodness. Well, okay. Yeah. It's definitely been a change. I think. Um, I think like for us working at tech companies, it wasn't like too much of a stretch because we had like the means already to work from home for the most part. Um, but I think for a lot of other companies that were very. Office first, I think this was like a really big change and it forced everyone to figure out like how to make work from home possible. Like if you need a VPN, figure it out, you know? Um, so I guess that like, yeah, it really changed the landscape. Like for a lot of companies, especially like ones that used to say that like working from home was like not a long-term option. So that's been interesting. It's kind kinda crazy because I would say like the large, large, large majority of tech companies are, if not remote first remote friendly, there's only a handful of companies that watch some semblance of return to office. Right? Like some, some Google teams, like, I don't even know what other, what other companies are not super remote friendly, but it seems like it's everybody. And how do you feel like you've been liking it? Like, do you feel. You want to continue being remote indefinitely or is like in-person interactions still something that you want to have? You know, I feel like it's kind of like a game of chicken where I don't want to be in the office if other people are not going to be in the office. And other people feel the same way. Like at work, when we were talking about return to office, everyone was kind of thinking, well, I'll only go if we have enough people in. So I think like, because of that, or I'm like very pro remote. If I can't get the vibe of the office from before COVID, then I don't really have any interest in going to the office. Like I would want to go to see everybody there all the time. I don't want to go into the office just to have me and like a handful of people there. Um, it's not the same. And if I were doing that, I might as well work from home. So I used to not like remote work, but now I feel like it's my first choice. Really? It's your first choice. Oh, my goodness. Who are you? I know I did not expect it. I didn't expect to be able to even be a good PM, like working from home, but I think that humans are really resilient and adaptable. Right. And given enough time and getting used to something you often can embrace it. Like I only wear pajamas at home, like at least pajama bottoms, and I can't give that up anymore and I'm okay with it too. That's so funny. Yeah. I feel like. I feel like when this all started, um, or no, even, even throughout the whole thing, I feel like my stance has been that like, I would want to go to the office at least part-time I could not really see myself as being like re remote a hundred percent of the time for the rest of my life. That just, I don't know. It kind of sounds. Isolating. I mean, there's ways to still like, have connections with other people remotely, but it's just, I don't know. I feel like I don't want to live the rest of my life. Like from my house, of course, like you do stuff in the evenings and you do stuff on the weekends if you're able to, but, but at the same time now, like going to the office has become optional for us. And at the same time, It's not like, even though it's an option, it's not like I've been dying to go in. Like I think going back in is going to be like a change in a transition as well. And like, the fact is that, you know, I'm not a morning person. I don't want to get up and go to the office and like, I have to do like any sort of commute necessarily. So I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of split on it. I can't see myself wanting to do remote for like the rest of my life. But at the same time, I'm not like jumping at the opportunity to go in. And maybe part of it is what you mentioned that like not everyone is there, so it's like, I'm going to go there. Like, I don't want to go there to be alone during the day, you know? Yeah, no, that's totally fair. Right? Like, and Nope, our best case of working in the office is going to be a fundamentally different working in the office experience than before. And it's really crazy to think that like the pandemic has been just a really big turning point for society. You know, I could easily see us in like a couple of years being like, I cannot believe we used to work like this. Like, I can't believe it was like this for so long. Right. Um, and it not just with work, but with like public health and like, I dunno, probably some other things. Right. It's just crazy. Like, thinking about just like the gravity of what has changed. No, that's true too. Yeah. It's not just about like the worst. That's been worked from home, but like the services that we receive at home now, too. Yeah. Like, as you mentioned health, or like mental health, like before, it was like, if you wanted to do therapy, like you were obviously going to go into somebody's office, but now like doing it online is such the normal thing where it's almost like, well, that's. You know, well, especially with the therapy example, it's like, that's already such like an intense and like private kind of thing. Like you might as well take it from the comfort of your own home and then like expand your options of who you're able to see instead of being limited to like just the people around you. Right. And it just feels so much like, well, duh, like, of course this makes sense. Right. And it's just weird reflecting back on it. Like I remember even last year, like I would feel guilty for working from home for too much. And now I'm like, why. I think I'm more productive at home. Like this is a whole nother topic, but my manager and I had this discussion, like we both think that we all work harder during like pandemic times. Cause you just like have more time in the day. I don't want to think about it. I don't know. There's a lot to be said there. I mean like the first thing that comes to mind is the whole like issue of. Disconnecting. Like, I think that was like a big thing for people, especially at the beginning that hopefully most people have figured out by now, but like when you're working and doing your personal life on the same space, like how do you have that boundary between the two? Is there a boundary. Can be easily in forest. And I think a lot of people were struggling with that, where they saw their work computer in the corner of the room and they had free time and they would just be like, oh, I might as well finish up some stuff from today. So I don't know. I feel like, I feel like, yes, it's probably true that. Um, maybe the average person has a bit more time, but I don't know. I don't think your extra time should actually be spent on doing work. I mean, it shouldn't, but I'm saying that like, I think that's what it's become, like we, you know, our worry before. Pandemic times of work from home is like, oh, you're not going to be productive at home. And like, yes, I vacuum during meetings sometimes. And I do my laundry and like do other things and like go on my phone and maybe I wouldn't pull up my phone as much at the office, but we also are no longer commuting, no longer taking this long of lunch breaks. Yeah.
8:00 AM meetings for me are very, very normal where for the office, I would just say, I'm not going, cause I need a commute. Like I actually think all that time has contributed to more work. Um, which necessarily not necessarily, you know, it's, it's not really a good thing, but I think that, you know, if we're arguing productivity, I would say that most of us have become more productive because of remote. You know what this reminds me of when you're like doing an interview with a company and they send you home with like a take home, uh, uh, a take home like homework assignments. And they're like, oh, it should only take one to two hours, but then you end up taking like three to four hours. Cause you know that everyone else is probably doing that. And you don't want to be the one that's a behind everyone else. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I'm still PSAs of like the allocating more time towards work kind of thing as being like the reason for productivity. But do you feel like, okay, like, let's say you spend the same amount of time working or you still like only work your eight hours a day. Like hopefully you're not working more than that. Um, but do you feel like your. Focus more or anything like that at work with like the lack of distractions, um, being at home? No, I really think so. Like, Like the distractions of like online shopping and going on your phone. Like, it's probably easier to be attempted with that from work from home. But I also, I truly feel like, at least for me, my job has been just so busy and like, there are so many more people asking me for things because before you'd have to walk to my desk to ask me for something or like be in a meeting, but now I just get like pings left right. And center. And I think that just like in general with the. More amount of time that we're spending at work. There's just more work being generated. So by virtue of being busy and always being quote unquote available, I've managed to stay pretty focused just because there's more stuff to do. But again, that's like, that's like flawed data, right. It also could just be busy time. I hear like I'm more senior now, blah, blah, blah. Like all those things. What about you? That's all true too. Um, Um, I feel like my, okay. My take with work from home and the way it's all been is like, at the beginning it was a real change and it was a real transition time. And it was like, you know, everyone's managers were like, oh, take the time that you need to get readjusted. And like, the expectations had come down a lot because it was like a weird time for everyone. And like, you know, we were all trying to figure out our routines and whatnot. And then there was a turning point where like, that transition period was over. Like it had been a month and it was like, okay, you should have your life figured out by now. And then the expectations came back. And so it was like high expectations, but still like not totally being in a routine and still kind of struggling with these things a little bit. And I think that was like a difficult portion of time. And then I think now that it's been so long, it's like, Something that I don't think about as much. And I am in a little bit more. I don't know if you've been routine. Okay. I guess it is a routine. I, it's not that I have like a perfect routine and have optimized everything and I've, you know, implemented all the tips from before and it's like a perfect Workday. It's definitely not that, but it's definitely feels a lot more like my normal. So I feel like the expectations are back, but also my productivity is like, okay. But I don't know. I wouldn't really say that I'm necessarily like more productive than I was at the office. Yeah, but I mean, at least you're back to normal. Right. Like I remember when we first started work from home, it was a lot of like, Hey, take it easy. I know this is like a change. Like, and then we would all have trouble adjusting. Like again, humans are really resilient and like robust. Right. And we like find a way I, yeah. Paradigm. I did also want to talk a little bit about like more of like the macro yeah. Macro environment we're in, in regards to like the, the, you know, The job market, right? Like I find this as an interesting topic where, you know, you see phenomenons like the great resignation, which was spurred by all these changes. And then also like the hiring fields, right? Like no longer do companies need to hire directly in their city, they can hire anywhere. And like, what does that mean for talent? Like what does that mean for. Job seekers. Like it's, it's all really interesting to think about. Like, I think that from a job secret perspective, like we are able to be a bit more picky with our choices. Um, and maybe employers are, you know, need to be offering more at this point. Like, I dunno, what do you think of all of this? Oh yeah. You know what? I feel like it's hard for me to say because I'm not like I'm not in the job market and I'm also not a manager and I'm, you know, work at a very big company where there's always been like competition for the jobs. So, I don't know. It's hard to say. Um, definitely. I think that like, people are being more picky and like are able to be more picky about what they're looking for. And I don't know, it also kind of like, for me, like, I don't have like a lot of ongoing experience in this because as I mentioned, I'm not like in the job market right now, but it makes me wonder, like, you know, for us, we moved out here. To pursue our jobs and like that had a really big impact on her life, but like, are people going to be doing. So much now, like moving to tech hubs, that was kind of almost like a, like a really distinct, not quite like a Rite of passage, but it, it was a pretty like distinct move for us, or like for our friend circle, at least of like, we all lived in Toronto, like kind of on the east coast and then moving out to the west coast to these major tech hubs was like a very distinct like life change. And I don't, I don't know if the kids graduating now, um, or even older people are going to be doing that so much. Yeah, it's really crazy to think. Like, I think remote work will impact like growth of major cities, like Seattle and SF. I do think there's lots of people moving here. You know, why would I move to really expensive city when I can work in my own city? It's a bit more complicated than that because a lot of companies adjust, pay based on cost of living. Um, but you know, it's like before it was very much mandatory to move and now it's not. So I really wonder how I guess talent and wealth and industry will be distributed in the future. Maybe more evenly, maybe not. It's just weird, but. Yeah. And I, I think like when it comes to that, I think we still are in a little bit of a flux period. Um, like when. When the long-term work from home started, everybody moved out of the bay area, uh, either totally, or like maybe just to the outskirts where it was a little bit cheaper. Um, but then like this year in the summer, when there was a lot of like work from, uh, or sorry, when there was a lot of return to office announcements, like I noticed because my rent renewed in, in August, I noticed that like a lot of places where. Returning not totally to their pre COVID prices, but like a little bit towards that, because there was a lot of people like coming back in preparation to maybe having to go back to the office, but then that still didn't totally happen. So I feel like we're still in a little bit of a flux period and, um, I'm really curious about how this is going to look longterm. Um, but I think you're right. That. Long-term like the fact is that everyone knows how to work remotely by now. Companies are more open to it. They're offering these kinds of positions to be remote. And so if that's what the market wants, like, if that's what people want is to be remote, then I think that that's going to stay. No, I, I really think it's going to result in more of a job seekers market. Like that's, that's the case going on right now? Like hiring is really, really hard. Um, and like it, you know, you hear like everywhere that places are having trouble hiring. Like I think Facebook recently released or sorry, Metta released something about how like hiring for 20, 21 has been like slower than usual. Okay. Yeah. I've been wondering about that too. Like, so there's that, there's the like hiring kind of slow down everywhere or like you called it like the great resignation. Um, but is that being seen. Within the tech industry, or I could definitely see that happening within like the service industry, because like, or like medical, because like, those people have been so overworked during COVID and like, not like really given the liberties of, you know, work from home and all these things. So I could see those industries being really, really tough, but from what you know, is this like, is this like a really big problem in tech? You know, I still feel like it applies to tech and applies. Office desk jobs in general. Um, because you know, we have a lot more options now, right? Like you're no longer tied to your employer as strong as before, because now your opportunities are not just in your city. It's like around the world. Right. And also I think the bar is a little bit higher where, you know, say an employer doesn't support remote work. You have all these companies that are supporting remote work. So I think like our standards. How we want to be treated, like are probably a bit higher. And then there's the whole thing about got this. I think at this point, I'd be very surprised if anybody was just like very against remote work, unless you're working with like physical products. Yeah. And I mean, there's also like the whole, we've gone through a pandemic and it's probably changed all our lives. Like, you know, we've S it's a little traumatizing, like pretty traumatizing for society at large. So maybe it, it like throws things into question more for. Of wanting to pursue their passions more and like not taking life for granted. You know, I haven't really read deeply until the great resignation and why things are happening and maybe I'm off base, but these are just like some hypothesis. Oh, interesting. I love hearing about them. We'll see, like, I'm going to quickly Google it afterwards and read some stuff and see if I'm off or not. But, um, I don't know. That's just kind of what I'm seeing. Like I've S I've been seeing a lot of people like quit more, like, I've see, I've been seeing like, Stuff about how hard it is to hire good talent these days. And some of it, I think is like a rebound from during the pandemic, there was a big hiring freeze in tech. Like everybody knew it was very hard to hire. Maybe this was backfill for the last year. So I think you're right. We're in a flux period. Yeah. I think that's definitely true. Like, I think a lot of like, in, in my team, there's been a lot of shifting around going on in the last couple of months, but I think. Like, honestly, I think a lot of that is the result of like, when it was like the true COVID work from home hiring freeze era that like nobody was moving. Cause everybody like, of course you want like job security and you don't want to move teams. If you think that returned to the offices around the corner, it's like, why would I move? Like in the middle of this like tumultuous period. When I'm not going to be able to meet my coworkers, but we're like, it was just like a weird time. It's just like, there's already so much change going on in the world that like, I don't think like for a number of months, it, it just seemed simpler to just not make personal changes. Um, So I think some of it is like kind of the side effect of that, of like finally things becoming normal and then people like finding new opportunities. But it's interesting what you said about like, you know, maybe some people are feeling like, okay, this is the time now finally, to make a move, whether it's because of passion projects or because of something that like fits their schedule better. Um, now that like we, like things are starting to level out a bit, it's like a little bit. Reliable to start making those big calls. Yeah. Yeah. Just like six, eight months ago. I think we need to wait it out. Like definitely when the pandemic has settled more and like in a couple of years and see how the industry has changed. Right. Cause it's still a little reactionary right now, but I still think that in general, if, as long as there's no like economic disaster or crash, um, I think it's going to be better for job seekers. We have a lot of opportunity to look at everywhere now. And you know, you could also argue competition is stronger because it's coming from all parts of the country. But I would hypothesize that, like, that's not really the case. Like I think top talent has always looked at New York, San Francisco, Seattle since forever and moving has not stopped a lot of people. So because of that, like, I, I, I do think it's going to be better for job seekers. Um, we'll see though, at least that's the case right now. If you're looking for. I would recommend doing it right now. It's very hot. Okay. We spoke about like, kind of the industry, but, um, coming full circle to our first episode, we spoke so much about like the like tips for day-to-day during work from home. And I wanted to check in about like, what things are you still doing? How do you feel like your routine is? And do you have any like new tips to off. So I did mention in the first episode about rituals to bookend your days. Right? And I still live by that. Like I make my morning coffee, the first thing in the morning, like have my coffee routine. And I always end my day with a workout. And I think though, ending your day with a workout has been really solid and like really helpful where it'll force me to log off at five o'clock. So that's worked really well. It's helped me with my work-life balance. All great. Some of the things that I haven't kept doing is probably along the lines of actually getting ready. So I think we talked about change your clothes, brush your teeth, wash your face yet. Pretend you're going to work. Pretend you're commuting. Nope. I show up in meetings in pajamas. I, you know, isn't healthy. I don't really know, but I've also been like really productive and really. I think doing well at my job recently. And I got my eyelashes done now, so I don't need to do makeup. And it's been, it's been okay. It always comes back to the eyelashes. Yeah. I've been getting my eyelashes done for the last couple of months now because we don't wear makeup anymore. And it's been a, it's been a good way to like, get ready without needing to get ready. You know what? That's a good, that's a good point though. About like, I think it was really tough when we were in the thick of things, because like services like that for a while were not even open, but now at least like, okay, you can be disgusting during the day or you can have like a chaotic day, but with, at least in the U S with things opening back up and having been a little bit open for the last little while, You can treat yourself, you can do things like that. You can get your eyelashes done. You can go for a massage. You can take care of yourself. You can do things in the evening. You can go out to the movies. You can go out for dinner on the weekends. Like I, I had this idea before about like, what if, okay, so normally our. Going when we were going to the office, normally our day looked like you would be out during the day, and then you may be more likely be like, stay in for the evening or like, maybe go out for dinner. But like, I dunno, some people might do more than that, but I think the majority of people are going to have quiet evenings, but, and I was thinking to myself like, okay, if staying home during the day becomes the normal. Does going out more in the evening, kind of end up making up for it because we need like some social interaction. And for a while, that was just not an option. It was just stay home all the time. And that's when we were like, everybody was really going crazy. But I think now it's like, It has flipped a little bit, or, you know, if you're somebody who's a craving that energy, that activity during the day, you have those options, like of those places and activities to like, have as that. Oh, I totally agree. Like, I think that when we first talked about it, it was a lot of like, I'm worried about not having a life and not talking to other people, but because we're, we can have more vibrant social lives. Again, at least for me, I felt very balanced. Like, I think like on days where I have tons of meetings in person, I would feel socially exhausted and like having them virtual makes me feel a little bit better, especially if I have a commitment in the evening. So I don't feel, I don't really feel isolated anymore because we're allowed to see our friends. Um, yeah, but I will say that, I think, I think for me, meeting fatigue has gotten worse where I've gotten more meetings because you can't like stop by people's desks anymore. So I feel like we just, my day has gotten filled with more meetings and sometimes we'd have social hour meetings, you know, like happy hours, like board games and stuff. Like I just stopped going like. I just, I don't enjoy like socializing virtually any more at all. And as a result, I haven't been able to maintain my friendships with my coworkers. So that's been really sad. Yeah. You know what I was thinking about that recently, too. We also started doing the like virtual socializing and it was really strong at the beginning. And then it wavered a little bit and now I'll drop in sometimes, but not all the time, like maybe half or less than half the time, depending on how busy I am. Um, but at the same time, I feel like I have gained some new like work friends or like connections grown my network a little bit at work. And I, but I feel like a lot of that has had to do with. More like finding good work opportunities. Because like, one thing that I had heard recommended like months and months ago was like, okay, like, you still need to grow your network and like talk to people. So like just put 20 minutes on their calendar. But like, it also feels weird to do that, to just like put a random 20 minutes on somebody's calendar just to like talk. But I, I don't know, just like looking out if you, you know, want to look out for your career, like finding good work opportunities where like you are able to. Talk to, or work with like a lot of different people. And then like, through that, like that being more of the excuse to like grow your network has been good. I mean, it depends on like the work opportunities that you have available to you. But I think, I think like right now it's really important to like find those opportunities where you can work in a group because of course, yeah. Working from home can feel very isolating. It's this weird mix between either isolated or you have like a crazy ton of meetings, but I think it's like, I don't know. You still got to try to have like some important connections. Yeah. It's you're right. Like it's I think the main thing that's taken a toll is our work relationships. Right? Cause like nothing it's really hard to replace water cooler chat. Okay. I'm in an open concept space. So we've done so many random things. Like we made pancakes in the office for a bug bash one time, you know, we've I organized this morale event called neighborhood crawl, where you go, like, we are open concept is in like little neighborhoods. So each area would, would like have a snack and a game and you get stamps and stuff like that stuff is really what bonds people at work. And I don't think there's a good replacement for that these days. And I would even say. In real life meetings. Like you kill time by like small talking. Right. But I don't think that's as common for virtual, like virtual. You're just tempted to like everyone camera off Mike off, wait until everyone's here. And then I still do the small talk. Like I tried up to the Exeter for this. Like we are, uh, camera's on group for the most part. And I'll always try to be. Hey everyone at the beginning of the meeting. And if there's time, if we're waiting for people, oh, how was your weekend? Blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't know. I still stand by that. I think that's still important. I would encourage everybody to still do. It's I totally agree. I think it's really helpful. I just think that it's tempting to not do it right. Like, and my, my skip level manager actually said that it's like his priority to make sure we get to know each other. And he will always try to small talk before a meeting. Like I think we all know it's really important, but it's just so easy to be like, go, go, go. Because these people aren't in front of you anymore. And there's like almost this layer of obstruction of like lacking. Personalness. I'm not finding the words, but you know what I mean? I mean, I think the thing there is like, you know, that's, that's a kind of like a culture problem and we all have a role to play in like forming our work culture. So if that's not something you care about then like, obviously you're not going to do it. But if that is something that you care about, do it because you know what somebody else might be. Also on the fence and feel a little bit pressure to like, not socialize, but if they see somebody else going for it, then like they'll feel a little bit more motivated to, and then like, you couldn't really like, have an impact with that. Yeah. So now that we've reflected on, I guess, work from home being probably a permanent thing and how your lifestyle has changed moving forwards. Like you're probably going to work from home the majority of the time. Are there any things you want to commit to changing in your life and improving to help your work from home set up? Oh man, like. I feel like the one main thing that I would want to improve is like the one thing that I've always been struggling with, which is like my morning routine. And this is just like a long-standing thing. Like, you know, when it comes to boundaries, I feel like I've been really good at like turning off in the evening. Like that's never been my problem, but like turning on in the morning and then like getting started and into things. I dunno, you know, as much as I feel like we have been okay with not doing that, like, as you mentioned, like you still, you show up to your meetings in pajamas and like don't wash your face and blah, blah, blah. And it's fine. You can still be productive during the day. But like, I also kind of feel like disgusting during the day. And like every day is a slog and I'm pushing through it sometimes. Um, so I feel like. I dunno. I feel like that's the main thing. I feel like other things have been going well, like, as I mentioned, turning off in the evening and like, my work from home desk set up is now very comfortable. And as much as I complain about cooking, I feel like I've pretty much figured that kind of stuff out and the networking has been okay. But yeah, my mornings are still like, not down to an art. How about you? That sounds like really naive, but I want a better setup and like just a better like office ergonomic situation. Like, I feel like I honestly didn't put that much work into it and all you should've did that on that like months ago on that, like I just get like back pain and like, my monitor is like a 10 80 P monitor and like, So many things that are out of place. I work at my dining room table, um, partially that's because I have no space in my studio apartment. Um, but I dream of setting up a proper desk and having everything in the right place and having like my belly button aligned with the B button of my keyboard. And like, by risks, I, I studied human factors. We took a course in ergonomics, but like my setup actually like, like it's, it makes my life miserable sometimes. So. Moving forward this year, we're going to get a better setup. We're going to make my office space like the best space. That's so funny. No, but you know what? I feel that I feel like when. We started doing like the work from home setup thing. It took me a while to decide on like what I wanted to do. And part of that was because like, at the very beginning I was thinking to myself like, oh, but we're going to be going back to the office in like a month from now or three months from now. So what's like the point in investing. Um, and so it took me a while to like, make my decisions about what I wanted. But once I finally did, like, I felt so much better. And when people come over, they still like, they compliment my desk and stuff and I'm like, oh my gosh, thank you. I take so much pride in my setup now. Exactly. For anyone who wants like inspiration, I did sit stand legs with like a big, um, uh, fo concrete countertop from Ikea. You can also get a wood one, but it's just, it's like so much space. It's really. See, that's so nice. I literally work at my kitchen table. When people come over for dinner, I need to unplug my monitor and like put it aside. Like it's terrible. Yeah. It's like not a great system. Maybe you could get one. Uh, no, I was going to say maybe you could get one of those desks. That's like attached to the wall and you can like flip it down enough, but I guess that might not work for your mom in my apartment. I, I know we're working with limited space. I don't know. That's my goal. I mean, I want to buy a house, the Sierra partially because of this like crammed living situation. So hopefully, hopefully I'll get a better workspace. If you want, if you want inspiration or help, I would love, I would love to contribute. Oh yeah. I have full confidence. You've Mel is the most, I mean, if you haven't gotten this from this podcast already, but Mel is like the most diligent and thoughtful person, like she'll go and like spend hours of research on buying like a vacuum or something. So, you know, if you ask her for her opinion, it's very well researched. Uh, vacuum is like an important investments. You can't just Willy nilly it. I just don't care about so many things. It's bad. We don't optimize it. Everything. That's so funny. Yeah. I, one of the things that I love is that I got. Just my tips for the desks enthusiasts. I got like a, uh, cable management trade that I like drilled into the bottom of the desk. So that way, like all my cables can be there. And then my monitor is on an arm that swivels and all the cables, um, go through that. And then all the ones on the back are wound up and like, Command strips to the back. And so like, everything's out of the way, like you barely see any cables and that makes me very happy. Very Mel it's very Mel actually, you know what? One thing that I do need to buy as a wireless keyboard, because this wired one is just like not fitting the bill. See, I don't have a keyboard I've I don't, oh, we didn't talk about this, but I've been working with my laptop and my track pad for the majority of the year. It was only recently that I got a mouse, literally that made me so angry. My boyfriend came over and he set up a mouse. He also set up my cable management, but that's how bad the ergonomic situation is here. And you studied human factors. Come on. It's it's what I choose to do this to me. Don't do this to me. That's so ironic. I've studied ergonomics and most of them, everyone so bad. No, but it does take like, kind of like a conscious effort. Yeah, like it takes it and it takes getting to a certain breaking point of like your back hurting. Cause you can deal with it for a little while, but at some point it's just like, Ugh, this is something's off. I need, I need something with you. Anyways. I wish you luck. Thank you. I truly like, I want to see your ergonomics improved. So, and this year I'm going to need your help finding, you know, some, some equipment for black Friday. I'm going to go all in on, on equipment shock. Oh my goodness. How exciting, very exciting. Going to get a 4k monitor. Love it. We love it. Okay. Well that, that was wow. That was a very like broad discussion today. We spoke about so many different things. We hope you guys enjoyed it. And I don't know, like pulled some insights from this. We're going to let you guys off easy today without any action items. Well, we hope everyone's found their groove with remote work. It seems like it's here to stay. Um, if you have any tips on like, what's really worked well with you, please send us a message on Instagram. Um, but otherwise have a good holiday season. Think things are going to start slowing down soon at work, which is fun. Okay. And with that, we'll catch you on another couple of weeks. I.