TGHH 39: Having Difficult Conversations

Do you dread the thought of having a hard conversation? Whether it's confronting a friend about a conflict, asking your manager for a promotion, or breaking some difficult news to your family, there are a lot of situations where finding the right words can be uncomfortable. In this episode, we discuss a framework to empower you to tackle these difficult conversations.

Transcript

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Hi. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Tech Girl Happy Hour we are your hosts. I'm Mel, and I'm Marissa. Excellent to see everybody again, you know, this past weekend, Marissa, we had so much rain in mountain view and like we never get rain. Wow. We hadn't gotten a lot of rain in Seattle. Two surprise, surprise. I think it hit the whole west coast. And I heard that it was called a psych clone ball bomb. Yeah. This came as news to me. This thought you would order at a dive. Like Saki bombs, but like, they're like, there's like blue Curacao and like, they're like, it looks like water. I don't know, cyclo and water. So it's like we should open a bar and serve this shot. Wow. I mean, that'd be down. Yeah. I saw a headline today. That was, it said like, oh, after cyclone bomb drenched, the west coast, you have somebody falls is like replenished. And I was like, wow, that's great. Cause last time we were at Yosemite, there was no water running. It made for a very anticlimactic hike. Anyways, everything's draining out now and drying up. So it's all okay. Over here. California rain. Yes. Speaking of like, I don't know, water and liquids, it's like the worst segue ever. Um, what are you drinking? Ooh, so I'm having a classic Marissa cider. It's the Schilling passport pineapple passion fruit cider. It's a lot of PS, triple P. It's delicious. It's very sweet. Pop up, pop up cider. It's very, very. Um, kind of tastes like candy though. What are you drinking? Oh, goodness. I am having the lesion. Contact haze. Hazy IPA. Yeah. You're drinking a Seattle beer. Oh, is it from Seattle? Alicia is owned by, I think big beer, like AB InBev, but they're from Seattle. Big beer. Get out of here. Yeah, this is from, oh Mel. What are you gonna come visit? In the spring for the dual Fecon. Yeah. We're, we're going to see doula peop do a leap of, or very, very excited. Yeah. If anyone wants to come and hit us up, messaged us on Instagram a few weeks ago, or like, I guess it was a couple months ago, there was this mountain view art and wine festival that I went to and lesion was like one of the main beer places. I don't know if they were sponsoring it or what, but, um, Yeah. You know what? I think that was like one of the first times that I heard of them. And so then I was at the store and I saw this, so I got a few different singles and I'm drinking it out of my mountain view art and wine festival, commemorative beer. Wow. It's actually a great glass. I've been using really nice crass. Oh my God. That's a great festival. Okay. Yeah, it wasn't a gift. I, I paid for it, but it was an upgrade. It was an upgrade. If you got a beer. Oh yeah, yeah. I left the classic. You pay an extra, what? Two bucks you get a pint to take home. I love local like food and wine festivals. So sweet. Honestly, it is. Yeah, it was fun. Are we adults? I feel like this is like an adult thing to do, actually. No, I would say it's an upper twenties year old, early 30 year old thing to do. That's an adult. Uh, her we adults or young adults, uh, life comes at you fast kids. Never forget that. Yeah, one minute you're young, but next minutes it's retinol and sunscreen all the time. Oh, yeah. Foam rolling out my back. Let me see chiropractor like woo, woo, woo. Anyway, speaking of like adult hood, I guess again with, I try so hard to make meaningful segways, but they're usually like kind of, kind of dumb, but it's okay. I still appreciate it. Thanks. So I'm putting in the work, you know, and I think that's the biggest thing that matters. Um, yeah. Speaking of like. Being a responsible adult today, we wanted to address the topic that is, is difficult in nature. And we've, we've had it on our list of episode ideas for a little while, but we were like, man, this is going to be like a heavy one to talk about. And the topic for today is difficult conversations. Oh, you know, it's actually been on our list for a while and it was difficult to have the difficult conversations about. So I know. Yeah. When Marissa and I were planning, we kind of looked at each other and we said, is it time? I think it's, I think it's time we finally tackle this, you know, but, um, you know, The older that we get, I feel like the more, the more of these like awkward situations and whatnot that we find ourselves in and the more that things like setting boundaries and like looking out for our wellbeing are important. And so that's why kind of more of that. We, we find that we have to actually face these tough scenarios. And I think like difficult conversations can come in so many different forms. You know, I, we often categorize things into like our personal life or work life and then like romantic relationships. And I think all of these, all of these kinds of categories have potential for, for difficult conversations. And for some of the tips that we're going to be talking about today and in classic tech girl, happy hour fashion, we're going to try to break it down. Come up with a framework, come up with strategies and arm you with good, actionable tips on how to succeed at speaking up, you know, so let's do it. She's, she's hyping herself up. She's doing it. So what are some examples of difficult conversations that you've experienced recently? Like, honestly, I feel like some of them are private. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Like you might think about recent things, um, or just like top of mind, like what comes, what are some examples that come top of mind then? Yeah. Um, You know, we mentioned these different categories of, of relationships that we have with people. I think setting boundaries is probably like one of the biggest ones. Um, and I think that resonates like through, through all the different categories, like through work and through personal life. And I think that's like, it's a very hot topic and I think that's one that's like, It's really hard to do. Like, I think it's one thing to define your boundary, but then to enforce it is like a whole other thing. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really relevant. I think like any sort of, um, like a lot of like conversations around, I, you know, I don't like that you're doing this or like voicing your discomfort comes back to protection of your boundaries. I think another example on like the flip side is actually like asking for things. So we always associate difficult conversations with things going wrong, but like honestly, like telling someone you have feelings for them asking for a promotion, like these things are difficult conversations too. It doesn't always have to be negative. Awesome. That's so true. So how do we usually handle it? I mean, for me, I, uh, get really awkward and. Do not make my point clear sometimes that's okay. Yeah, no, no. Let's break it down. Um, yeah. I was thinking, you know, classic tuck girl, happy hour fashion, as you mentioned about the frameworks and whatnot. Like, I kind of see this in the different stages of like the before and then the jurying and then the after. So let's start by talking about the, before. Getting prepared for this difficult conversation, you know, it's not going to happen out of the blue. You're probably have something on your mind, like leading up to it. Right. And so you can definitely take the time to prepare beforehand. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, like, as, as weird and artificial might seem, I actually think writing notes down and preparing, talking points are really helpful. Like we do it a lot for work. Like a good example is. People are pretty well-trained to ask for promotions. Like that's like something that there's actually like a lot of content on people. Talk about it. It's a common topic in career growth discussions, and that's a difficult conversation. That's well-documented and I think we come into promo talk with like a list of arguments, why we should get promoted. And how do you structure the conversation? Why not take that to more of your personal life things like, you know, we have an issue in our relationship. Like you're not clean. Like you should come with a guy. Uh, guided structure around how you want to tackle that. Like, Hey, like discuss the issue, discuss how it makes you feel like suggest mitigations. Like, so you, so you don't freeze and you don't, you don't just like tell someone like you're not clean. I don't like it. And then that's not really as productive of a conversation. I love that. That was your example. But yeah, no, no, no preparation is definitely, um, definitely necessary. And like, I think it helps to organize your thoughts and. You know what I remember, I was talking about this like months ago and like, I dunno if it was like, when this topic first came up or what, or if I was just asking you for advice, but you mentioned that you will literally write down your points ahead of time. And I thought to myself, I was like, wow, I would've never thought to do that. Cause I would have felt like maybe that's like, so fake of me. To prepare in such a structured way for something that is if it's like very personal. Right. Um, but I don't know. I feel like this is a, I feel like this is us growing up and being like, no, man, if you need a handle things, you like, you gotta handle them and you gotta do it. Like whatever means necessary and like not be ashamed of whatever steps it takes to get there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think to expect that you can spontaneously come up with and speak to. Complex and hard to communicate point is a bit too much. Like there's nothing wrong with preparation. Yeah, no, for sure. And like personally, I find that when I'm put in the hot seat, like I get so flustered sometimes. Like I can't even, I can't think straight at all. Like I just, I can't, I can't even speak because I'm just like so flustered. Yeah. So I think like having your points and like really figuring out. What are what's what are like the main outcomes that you're trying to get out of this conversation? Like, oh, that's a really good. Right. So like during the conversation, you can kind of like, just check through those couple of things in your mind of me, like, wait, did we address these like important things, right? Like you're probably not going to remember every single point or like how you, you know, if you journaled for example, like, you're not gonna remember how you wrote that necessarily, but you need to remember like what your core outcomes, where are your core points that you were trying to make? That's a really good point. You know, sometimes we have difficult conversations just to rant, but there's like, no, there's no stated outcome. Like, I feel like we get really angry and in the negative situations get really angry and just kind of like unload on a situation. But like what, like what are you trying to accomplish with that? Like you should give the other person, if it's like an interpersonal issue, like suggestions of changed behavior or like, you know, suggestions on how to mend your relationship or just telling them like, I don't know, like I. Stating a goal is what we do in meetings. Right. Like I think there's a lot of parallels with running, running good meetings and having these discussions. So I like that. Yeah. And even for the positive, it's like, what do I want the positive scenarios? What do I want? And like, you know, maybe like maybe there's a plan B of like some midway negotiation in case you don't get everything that you want. Um, but I think like, I think with the preparation, like I think preparation could look like different things. Um, But I, I think part of, part of why we would want to do this is also to just like gain confidence. And I think preparation can look like different things. So like, for example, if let's say like, The work example of like a salary negotiation, it preparation might look like legit research of like going online and like looking up for your role in your experience, what people are making. So that way you have this, like this backup of infer or this information. Backing up your claims about what you're asking for. Right? So it gives you confidence in what you're asking for, or the preparation can also look like talking to like a trusted member of like your family or your friends circle, or maybe even your therapist. And again, it's all about gaining confidence. I feel like, I feel like sometimes when there's like difficult conversations to be had, I love just like sanity checking myself against my friends and just making sure like, wait, like what I'm asking for, like what I think or how I perceive the situation makes sense. Right? Like, is there something that I'm totally missing? And then it, honestly that I find gives me such a sense of confidence of just being like, okay, I I'm pretty sure that how I'm feeling is reasonable. What I want is reasonable and I won't let that be undermined in this conversation. Right. That's a really good point. Yeah. Checking with your peers and even doing like test runs of things that you're going to say. Uh, so you're not, you're not like in your head about too many things and not like way off base. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like bouncing off, like the kind of language you want to use. Like you probably not going to. remember that exactly when the time comes, but at least you've had a little bit of practice. And if you're someone like me who gets flustered in the, in the hot seat, then at least you have practice, like talking about these things out loud. So we like when it comes down to it, you, you, it's not like the first time that you're verbalizing. Yeah. So say we've prepared for the conversation and it's, it's time to finally talk. Um, how do you approach the. Like, honestly, I think one of the first things that I want to say is that there's no perfect time to do it necessarily. I mean, okay. I guess it depends a little bit on the scenario. Um, you know, if it's something for work, you might have already dedicated time with like your manager, whoever, but if it's like a personal, like, You know, either friend, family, romantic partner, there's really no time to bring up difficult conversations. And this is something that I like I had been thinking about a little while ago and I spoke to other people to get feedback on this. And everybody just said the same thing to me. There's no perfect time to bring something up. You kind of just have to do it. And like personally, I like to just own the awkwardness. Like these things are often very awkward, but I laugh about it. I'll be like, so this is kind of awkward, but I wanted to talk to you about something. You just got to go for it. Like, as soon as you blurt out those first words, like I would say in your preparation, it's almost like. You know, you want to prepare your main points and maybe that one sentence about how you're going to break the ice and just blurt out that one sentence, and then there you go. It's started and you're in it. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And you got to just embrace the awkwardness if it's awkward. I mean, maybe it's not awkward. I don't know. But, um, I think for a lot of people, I think a lot of us find like any situation like this, like pretty awkward. So I would also say that, you know, Although like, yeah. Sometimes timing isn't perfect. I would say going into the conversation, you shouldn't be very emotional. I think this like applies a lot to like the negative situations where you're angry at something like you should never have a difficult conversation when you're like hot headed. Cause it's just hard to think straight. It's hard to be kind like I would wait until you've calmed down and prepared and are like more balanced before you start that conversation. Okay. I think that's good. Um, no, I think that makes sense. I could see though, I could see some people struggling where it's like, oh, like you kind of second, guess yourself a little bit. When you come down and you're like, this thing already passed. Um, do I still bring it up? But the answer is always, yes. The answer is always, if something happens, you should probably bring it up. Um, Yeah. One of my tips for this is like, take your time. Honestly. It's. Things can be awkward, you know, and you might need a moment to think and whoever you're speaking to might also need a moment to think. So I think this is like a, you know, when you do like TA training or like teacher training, facilitator, trading, anything like that. And they say like, oh, if you ask a question to the group or to the class, you wait for response, you know, you don't try to fill. The fill the silence necessarily, because just because you find it uncomfortable, but really like give people a chance to think for themselves and speak up when they're ready to, and donuts, you don't have to rush it along. I think like taking your time with these things is really important and like, and in that way, like giving space for both parties to think without like too much pressure. Yeah. And on that note, I think also, like, I think it's also important to remember that like not everything needs to be resolved right away. No, we, you definitely want to draw on those preparation points and that's another tip is, you know, when you have that quiet moment to yourself and you're just thinking like, think, think back to that preparation that you did and say like, oh, did I cover all these outcomes that I wanted to all these specific bullet points, but, but know that. I don't know. I, I would imagine in a lot of difficult conversations, it's often one party initiating it and the other party not expecting it. So the other party may need time to think about these things and, you know, you give them space as you're talking, but also not everything might get resolved right away. This might be like something that you want to revisit like a week from now or something like that. I think also remembering to be like tough empathy is really. Um, often I think this is probably more related to conflict, but if you have to have a conversation about conflict, probably like you need to remind yourself that this person isn't usually out here to make your life miserable. It's probably a result of some sort of misunderstanding and like they still care about you. Or if it's at work, you're probably trying to both do the right thing in your job. And. Not to like Harbor, a lot of anger and blame, I think is really important and like, try to like see the other person's perspective and be a bit more balanced, I would say. Ooh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. And on that note, like I would really say approaching with curiosity is great. Like I love the idea of. Asking somebody like, like giving somebody a chance to explain themselves, maybe beef, even before you explain the way the situation read to you. Ooh. Being like this, this is what happened. Why did it happen this way? And then this is how it read to me. And this is how it affected me and why it affected me in that way. But you definitely want to give the person the chance. Like if there's any explanation on, well, I mean, of course this depends on what the scenario is that we're talking about, but you're right. A lot of times things are caused by like miscommunication or like, you know, something like where you have similar values, but you're expressing things and in different ways, like your actions end up being very different, but like when it comes down to it, you guys like nobody meant to upset the other person or anything like that. Okay. So say you've had the conversation it's, it's done and you go back to your life. Um, I think there's more to be done here in the post conversation phase. Um, and I think we'd often don't think about this and address it. So what are some tips here for maintaining that relationship and continuing, um, after the difficult conversation. I mean, I think it's always nice to have like a moment of reconciliation, if you can. I'm like, you know, you try to end things off on like a good note, but I mean, I think it's also important that going back to my point a minute ago, it was, um, that like, things may not be fully resolved. But I think like in terms of trying to resolve things and looking towards looking towards the future, like making it, making some. Routine time for these kinds of conversations with this person might be a good idea. And I think like for work, we do this a lot, you know, like you have your one-on-ones with your manager. So there's that, that's like a very clear, obvious way. But I only learned in this last like year that actually a lot of people do that for their relationships, like the romantic relationships as well. Like a lot of couples will carve out an hour every week or every. Just to like have heart to heart conversations and it may not get used every time. Like probably every week might be too much, but maybe like every two weeks, it may not get used to the full extent every time. But at least it's like dedicated time for you guys to bring anything up. And like sometimes, sometimes it can be hard to do that. Around the busy-ness of life. Right. And so it's like, uh, it's, it's a chance for people to come into the conversation prepared, um, and to not be taken off guard with anything. And so I think, you know, if you're finding, like, especially in a romantic relationship that you're, maybe you're having a lot of problems, are you having like a lot of trouble finding the time to talk about these things, revising like your strategy and, and organizing some time, like this could be a nice idea. Maybe the secret to difficult conversations is to always talk about things, candidly, and check in more. So things don't become difficult. Exactly. Yeah. Like you don't want to wait too long. Right. Otherwise things get bottled up. So this is just like a strategy to help avoid that. I would also say like, you know, reflect on how the other party is risk. If you know, if you've come with peace and preparation and empathy and say it blows up and the other person didn't take it well, I would also reflect on why that happened. And like, you know, if this person is, maybe this is more for interpersonal, but like if, if they didn't take feedback well, like is this person a good friend to me and thinking more critically on that relationship? Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. Like, uh, it, sometimes, unfortunately it's like, it really is unfortunate, but there's some people that, you know, we even, we take all these tips into the conversation with them, and yet we're still not able to have a productive conversation. Doesn't happen often, but it happens sometimes. And at that point, it's like that you got to really reflect about that. Um, I think maybe my biggest tip on the, on the recovery side of things, I don't know, is that what we would call it? Like the, the, on the closure side of this conversation is like, honestly, just like breathe and like, feel relieved that you did it. Like you had a difficult conversation, you exercise that muscle. And it's over and out. Well, ish, I mean, you might have to revisit it, but like, that's like really empowering, honestly, celebrate the fact that you went and actually prepared and took the step and did it, cause I think a lot of us avoid these for a very long time and like bury things under the rug until one day it explodes. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Um, and I wanted to share to share. I wanted to share this quote that I heard a while ago. This, this is so cheeky of me to share a quote that I, um, no, but it was actually good. Okay. This small little story time that the other week I saw this medium article. And it was like, oh, the one question that successful people ask themselves. And I was like, wow, this is going to be a stupid article. Like what a click baity title. I've never seen title before in my life, you know, but, you know, I clicked on it and I read it and it was actually good. And you know, what they recommended was to ask yourself, Whenever there's a scenario of like something that maybe you don't want to do, um, or you not looking forward to doing it, ask yourself, how will I feel about this in a day, a week, a year, five years. And like, chances are for these difficult conversations. Like you will feel so much better after you do them. And after you have them, The version of you a year from now is going to be like, thank goodness I brought it up then. And I didn't wait months later to bring it up. Yeah. And that's like, that's like the main thing that motivates me to just like, get over that hump of, of like taking, taking the step to actually start these conversations. I never thought I would find such wisdom in a medium article. I mean, I looked at it in general life, like coping and stuff. Yeah. I mean, they like, they, some, they have good articles sometimes, but like a lot of them are also knock. I'm just going to leave it at that the, this, this show is not to trash, medium writers. Okay. Marissa, I think you know this, but. I, you know, I see you as someone who's very brave and like, I feel, I feel, and this is me using that, you know, I feel, I think. Language that they always recommend for these kinds of conversations. So that way you're not like accusing the other party of anything. Not that I'm accusing you, but I feel like you're very like brave person and that you're good at having these conversations. So, you know, I wanted to ask, like, even though you might not think that I see you making faces at me, that you, you might, you might doubt your abilities here, but like what's your journey been? Like, have you always been candid about these things or. Or have you gotten better over the years or what's the story there? Oh my God. I'm honored. I mean, I don't think I'm as good as you, as you think. I am. Like, I got really in my head and awkward and stuff like, but I think what has improved is I think as a kid, I used to be really shy and like push ovary. Like I had a phase, I, for some reason I was a really bossy kid early on. And then in middle school and early elementary school, I was very shy. And I felt like I was always like agreeing to everything and getting taken advantage of. So then I joined the debate club in high school, and then I started doing student government and university, and then I became a PM and I feel like I've been putting myself in uncomfortable situations. A lot of roles that I take on involve like conf confrontation and honesty. And I feel like it's simply just has been exposure, exposure, and growing up a little bit. I'm not great at it, but I think I'm like, I'm more advantageous because my job demands, this kind of stuff more. It's just practice. If anyone can practice, like, I really think you can practice this stuff. Wow. Look at you exercising that muscle. So many things are just holding the muscle. Like I think, yeah. We're like genetically predisposed to certain skills, but like interpersonal skills I think can really be honed. Like it's. Wow. So call people out for practice. I think that one of my largest examples of having these conversations, um, I mean, there's a lot of personal life ones that, um, I'm, I'm not gonna share necessarily, but like, I think when I was. Getting my current job and I had to negotiate and it was like the first job where I was able to negotiate. That was like a big step for me of like really employing this framework of like doing the research and like figuring out what I was going to say and like really trying to advocate for myself. And I just had to remind myself of the reality of like, man, if I don't do this, like this is going to follow me. The rest of my career with this company and like, yeah, I just, I need to, there's no choice. It's like, I know that they're expecting me to, and I need, I just, if I want what's best for myself, I need to just figure out a little bit of a strategy and just do it. But that was like, that was like a big deal. You know, it's like first big job out of college and, and you're. Yeah. You know how it is like coming from student life, you have no money and then you go to negotiate and you're asking for more money and you're like, but I may think would be an improvement in my current situation. Well, no, it's a muscle now that you've negotiated ones, you'll have a much easier time the next time. And then, and then the next time after that, it's like always the first time. That's the hardest. No, it really is. It really is. And like, I, yeah, I never thought I would say it, but I feel like. I feel like I finally have been exercising that muscle more and I'm a little bit better at it. Um, and you know, what's funny, it was at a party on the weekend because look at me socializing. I was at a party and we were just like having real talks amongst the girls and somebody was sharing their like relationship problems right now. Like with somebody that they were dating and. I don't, I don't know, was this self-righteous of me. It was like giving advice, but no, we were all talking. She wanted advice. She wanted input. Um, and so it was so funny cause I was kind of like, I was literally giving an example of like how I would bring up. A difficult conversation. And I was like, Hey, I just wanted to check in about things. I'm like, I wanted to talk to you. I wanted to talk to you about like XYZ. And like, some of the other people were laughing. Cause they were like, okay doctor, like, is that how you would say it? And I was like, that's literally how I would say it to someone. Like, I don't know how else to say it. Like, it might be a little awkward, but I just, you just got to blurt it out and you just got us. It's there's no easy way to approach stuff like this. There really isn't. Okay. Action items time. Well, this was like quite, quite the framework development. Honestly. I'm quite impressed with ourselves. We should be given like honorary doctorates in psychology for the word we'd said here today. Um, so my action item is gonna be. Kind of looking towards the past in a weird way. Um, you know, I think a lot of us have probably had conversations that we didn't really know how to approach. So I think we can take that as a learning opportunity and reflect on like what we could do better for next time and how we could like improve either that conversation or that relationship with that person. Mine is going to be, um, think about, there's probably some sort of like difficult conversation that we all want to do. And it's in the back of our heads. It's either like something you want to ask for something you want to fix and make plans to start addressing those, using the framework, using the framework. Of course, um, looking to the past and looking to the future. Wow. Okay. That was quite the heavy conversation today. And oh, I just want to say that, you know, like our tips were to prepare before it, and I literally wrote notes for this conversation. So. I'm going to give myself an a for efforts. Woo. Okay. Well, thanks again for joining us on another episode of tech girl, happy hour. Um, if you have any ideas for further episodes and wanna engage with us in social media, please follow and message us at tech girl, happy hour. Every DM and reply to every DM. Um, yeah. Yeah. And if you enjoyed today's episode and you think that somebody else could benefit from it, especially this rigid framework that we came up with, feel free to share this with a friend. We would be very happy if you see. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you in two weeks. Bye bye.